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 Post subject: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2011, 09:21 am 
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We've gotten a reply from an Uru Live Moderator (which may or may not represent an official Cyan reply) on this topic. I think we should make this a priority as long as others here agree. Afterall, it seems this is at the core of what Rand and Cyan have in mind for the "official" GoMa.

It would appear to me, with my extremely limited understanding of Open Source in general and the particulars of coding and Writing for MOULa, that we need a lead Maintainer on this project who understands CWE and MOSS and how this is all going to fit together. I believe this would be Andy, yes?

Let's start a discussion here, and if necessary perhaps we'll need to create a sub-forum devoted to this kind of conversation (unless we have one I'm not aware of?)

Mac_Fife wrote:
Montgomery wrote:
Where is Cyan with regard to the FCAL for MOULa? I know some work was done over a year ago in preparation for this, and some details hammered out.

As I recall from my time working on this at the beginning, there was some discussion about creating a panel which would consist of equal parts Maintainers, Writers and Archivers. I think the idea was Writers would check coding and the technical side of the files, Maintainers would check playablility and aesthetics, and Archivers would check integration into the storyline and general consistancy with the D'ni universe.

Am I on the right track? I'd like to start this process up again, and would appreciate any insight into the current state of affairs and Cyan's ultimate requirements for inclusion of FCA into the main shard of MOULa. And, or course, how the GoMa fits in.

The original references there were in relation to the MORE proposal and getting fan ages etc., into MOUL and not specifically related to open source. You have to look at what open source means for the code as being one thing and what it means for content as another and I think it is content that your question is more concerned with.

Rand's Open Letter shows that Cyan still has an aspiration to get fan content onto MOULa, and that will obviously require some form of vetting or review. Clearly, Cyan is still in a tight position on time and manpower, so it seems likely that fan assistance will still be required, and again, Rand's letter references the Guilds a number of times. There is no specific guidance yet on how that might be accomplished, but the general outline of that MORE model still looks relevant.

The wild card that open source throws in is that it is now possible for anyone, with the appropriate skills and the inclination, to take the source and create modification and derivatives of the game engine, and some of those modifications should also find their way back into Cyan's MOULa server. That's the whole point of open source, but it does imply that shards could appear that employ features or enhancements that mean that an age created for Shard A may not work on Shard B. So, further down the road, code revisions that are or are not adopted into MOULa might affect whether a fan age is compatible with Cyan's MOULa or not.

I've also started conversations here and here.

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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2011, 10:43 am 
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For me, FCALs are irrelevant. I make the Age I have an idea for based on the artistic vision I have at the time. I have never even come close to Cyan content (no grand revelations on Bahro fashion choices) and if I ever do something that gets into Cyan content, that's something I feel should be resolved after the Age is complete *if* the Age writer cares about having their Age on Cyan's server. So rather than get me to declare my Age's plan ahead of time, I'd much rather discuss the idea with Cyan after I have it nailed down into a tangible form.

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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2011, 10:54 am 
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I've always tried to keep within FCAL, personally.

I think Andy's current status is not in the GoMa due to lack of time to manage things, unfortunately. Then again, with the opening of the source this place has significantly more of a point, so maybe knowledgable people will step forward.


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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2011, 10:58 am 
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FCAL? A four letter word from a dim and distant past. That was for MORE and MORE is dead.

With open source FCALs no longer apply. People can do as they like now. If you want to make an age that has little Zandi avatars flying around a big arch no one is going to stop you.

Whether all shard owners are going to put your age onto their shards is a different matter. In that regard Cyan is just another shard owner now. So yes, if you want your age on MOULa you'd probably need their FCAL.

However, this is my plea to Cyan: Please, handle your own FCALs! The FCAL panel was a very bad idea. How could you even think that an argumentative community like this one will ever accept peer reviews?

That being said IMO our focus should be on CWE. As JWPlatt stated in this post: "CWE is about the path to MOULa. Anything else is really a different product." Be warned though that this may well be the slower path. It is quite possible that forked branches are going to achieve results faster and will be ahead of CWE with innovations.

There is no reason though why we shouldn't help testing "forked" ages as well. And with several incompatible versions around good testing will become all the more important. As a maintainer you are going to need a big hard drive to hold all those installations. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2011, 11:17 am 
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I'll give you guys a heads up (what I'm allowed to say anyway at this point).

Fan Ages running on MOUL server will have to be done in a different way.

What I'm about to relate is fact. Don't ask me HOW or WHY I know it is fact, as I'm not allowed to say, and wouldn't want to spoil anyone.

FACT:

Fan Ages can be "Slipped" on to a MOUL type server, like we do for ALCUGS and for Uru:CC, and may be continued to be done so on any OS shards that pop up with the release of the source code.
However, do not expect this to happen on the MOUL:a shard. "Slipping" will only work for test purposes. To add a Fan Age to MOUL:a, the must be a "Rebuild", which requires the Max files for the Age (and for now it MUST be Max 7, not Max 8). This is due to the "Build Machine" that Cyan uses.
Does this mean anyone using Blender is "screwed" and will never see their Age on MOUL:a?

No.

It will take some work, and a LOT of voluntary hours, but any Fan Age can be imported and rewired into 3DS Max 7. Also, at some point down the road, with the release of the source for the plugin, there will most likely be new "Build Machine" versions, ones that can accept more upto date version of Max and Blender.

FACT:

MOUL:a's PhysX engine is VERY picky about colliders. Havok is very forgiving. So a lot of colliders and physics that seemed to be working with Uru:CC or on a Alcugs shard, will NOT be working with MOUL:a, and will be a very ugly surprise for people, heh. Was for me anyways.

FACT:

MOUL:a is very picky about sound file formats. Using the existing sounds with MOUL:a will not cause any problems.......using sound files you may have created might, depending on the format you made your .ogg and .wav files with.

FACT:

Avatar Clothing. You can forget it for Uru:CC. Making takable clothing requires several special Max files from Cyan, and the ones you need are for MOUL:a. They will not work with Uru:CC or Alcugs (I know, as I've tried).

FACT:

The Pixel / Shader component is not supported by the older version of Plasma (IE Uru:CC, Alcugs, etc). It's just too cool!

FACT

Access to Fan Ages: How to get players to link to them. Right now there are 3 options being considered and worked on. The least desirable is simply adding a link to the existing Nexus. I won't say what the most desirable one is at this moment.

FACT:

You all will be getting another surprise soon on MOUL:a, so keep your eyes open and visit the cavern.

FCAL's: I can tell you right now, that at least for the near future, no Fan will be adding their Age to MOUL:a on their own. That will be something that Cyan will decide on, and discuss with that Age Creator.
Fan Ages on other OS Shards: Hey, it's your business I guess, as it's your shard using MOSS, etc. FCAL's would only be applicable to MOUL:a itself, but there's not much talk about it right now (and if you apply and don't get an answer back, it's because they are busy.....VERY busy right now, so be patient).

Some Tips For Age Creators:

Start thinking Multiplayer. If you've made doors that open and close using only a clickable and a responder, get ready to change them. You're going to need to use xStandardDoor.py instead, which means you are all going to need to learn how to use Exclusion Regions (Exclusion Regions are used to move a player out of the way from the moving object (IE Door), and to a safe point), they are a MUST for Multiplay environments.
Elevators: Start working on your Python. Take a good look at all the elevators in Uru, and how they use Python.
Basically, if more than one person can interact with it at the same time, you will need to start thinking about using Python, heh.

Oh yah, Python files won't be packed into a .pak file anymore (so naming your files is really important), and SDL uses a different format.

Okay, gotta stop and dive back into work. I've got deadlines, heh.

-Andy

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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2011, 01:05 pm 
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andylegate wrote:
I'll give you guys a heads up (what I'm allowed to say anyway at this point).

What I'm about to relate is fact. Don't ask me HOW or WHY I know it is fact, as I'm not allowed to say, and wouldn't want to spoil anyone.

FACT

Access to Fan Ages: How to get players to link to them. Right now there are 3 options being considered and worked on. The least desirable is simply adding a link to the existing Nexus. I won't say what the most desirable one is at this moment.

FACT:

You all will be getting another surprise soon on MOUL:a, so keep your eyes open and visit the cavern.

FCAL's: I can tell you right now, that at least for the near future, no Fan will be adding their Age to MOUL:a on their own. That will be something that Cyan will decide on, and discuss with that Age Creator.

Hey, Andy. You certainly don't disappoint.

Erm, could the thing you won't talk about in the first item, above have anything to do with the second item, above?

I'm sorry now that I've been so much out of the conversation for so long. I no longer remember things I was surely told a year ago. But, are you now working with/for/at Cyan?

I guess my most important question to you (given what you say and don't say in your post) is do you think the GoMa should focus on our role in approving new content for MOULa? Or am I being premature?

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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2011, 03:28 pm 
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Check your PM's.

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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2011, 02:13 pm 
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@Montgomery: You shouldn't take what I wrote as representing "an official Cyan reply", just my interpretation ;) (the perpetual problem of posting in green on the MOUL forums).

As has been said by others the FCAL scheme and the MORE approval system don't really hold for open source, and certainly not if your material is going on an open source shard. FCALs are still relevant if you're planning on using some of Cyan's art in your work, but otherwise they shouldn't feature. In fact, if the time ever comes that Cyan has the resources to accept fan ages into MOULa it all rather turns on it's head. Notwithstanding andylegate's informed comments above, particularly with regard to Cyan's build engine, as a third party author you might have to consider the form of license that you apply to your work and impose on Cyan. I'm guessing that Cyan will, when the time comes, want to have some kind of release form that permits them to work with your material. It's probably too early to try to thrash the detail out with Cyan yet, but it's part of the "workflow" that will need to be worked out at some point, if fan ages are going to find their way into MOULa.

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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2011, 03:41 pm 
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:D Thanks Andy.

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 Post subject: Re: FCAL Revisited
PostPosted: 13 Apr 2011, 10:12 am 
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Personally, I like Mac's guess as a future option. One which allows the Age creator to retain rights and control over the content while still letting Cyan use that content. Rather a lot better than the lists of draconian quality requirements I've been hearing about.

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